Something is irking me today.
It's kind of a shame that some FAs, particularly male FAs talk about their ideal BBW while referring to paysite models, and then half expect fat chicks to know who they are talking about. Never mind the fact that hey, I don't spend all my time perusing teh paysites, or the fact that I'm not shaped like a paysite model either. If there were more paysites directed at straight women, you know, the kind that are designed for the female gaze, there's a pretty good chance I'd care more about buying or viewing porn, but I digress.
Let's just get something straight fellas, there are other shapes and other bodies besides the uber pear, so don't expect other fat chicks to idolize those bodies the same way you do, regardless of whether or not they aren't pear shaped. Uughn. In a way this expectation is just proof that the straight male FA isn't any different from any other straight male in that they do have an idealized version of the female body. It just isn't a thin one, or a typical one even for a fat chick.
What I don't think some of them understand is that what they see in a fat paysite model as an affirmation and celebration of fatness can be for the non paysite woman, just another cue that our bodies might not be good enough. How depressing is that? So if you're not pear shaped the message is that not only are you not good enough to be beautiful or not good enough because you aren't thin, you're also not good enough to be fat either. Or if you are pear shaped then it might make you feel very much like a sex object. Sigh. Either way, your value is placed on how you look. As a woman, your value is placed on your body anyway, rather than your character. Le sigh. There's just no winning here, or is there? Hmmmmmm. Sexual power anyone? Anyone? Beuller? (Yeah, that's a topic for another post, innit?)
Don't get me wrong here, I'm not knocking what some FAs find attractive. We all have a right to like what we like and we have a right to express our preferences as well, but there's got to be a way to express what you like without being so exclusionary.
I also sometimes feel like some FAs who don't spend any time around actual fat people for whatever reason (i.e. dearth of fat bodies in Small Town, USA) either forget or don't realize that not all fat chicks are shaped the way those models are, or that we don't actually do the things some of those models do in their sets (i.e. "Hey honey, watch me eat this entire cake. Tee hee."). Or that what the models do in their sets is staged fantasy. By and large, when sex is sold it is staged fantasy. So why do so many people (women included) expect porn whether softcore or hardcore to be real?
If fat people were represented well in the media, or if fat was not demonized the way it is I think FAs wouldn't feel as tho fatness were so taboo as to have to rely on hot paysite models to get their daily does of fat exposure or fat pleasure. They wouldn't get drunk on the idea that fatties spend all their time eating whole cakes, or expect the fat chicks they do meet to be able to do that. :-s
I'm not knocking paysite models, or fat porno actresses either. I really do respect what they do and wish they didn't have to fight to have fair representation/visibility at porno conventions.
I just wish ultimately that fatness was not the taboo transgression it is. I probably have more to say about fat as transgression too, but that's also another post for another day.
June 9, 2009
April 6, 2009
...But It's the fat, yo!
Why is it that as fat women, we get to thinking that our fat is the reason for every fucked up thing that happens to us when it comes to sex and dating?
I find myself lately telling other bbws (and even some thin people) that our fat doesn't have to do with everything that that might be wrong with our sex lives. Sure, yes you are fat, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to find a decent guy. Got no man? Get up off your fat ass, step away from the computer and live life. Seriously, go out and do something. Anything. You just might come across a hot out het male en route to your volunteer job or that community theatre you're in or your pilates class (No sniggering. Yes, fat girls do pilates), and he just might think you're hot too. Hell, why not ask that hot guy you run into on a date? So what if he rejects you. There WILL be other guys. After all, isn't this what skinny girls do? Stop waiting for prince charming to fall out of the sky and save you. Stop thinking you'll find the right guy if only you could loose another 20, 75, or 200lbs. You don't have to be thin to be loved, admired, and respected as you are. Sometimes the fucked up things that happen, happen because the guy is just a fucked up person, not because you are fat.
I know what you're thinking. "...But what about the fetishists who only want to fuck and bolt?"
First of all, sometimes men who like thin women (only the ones who are jerks, not all men of course), objectify them in the same way. They get used for sex too, so it's not just you. And those kinds of fetishistic jerks who do this to fat women give FAs a bad name. To my mind those guys aren't FAs. Just loosers. They don't objectify fat girls cause we are fat, they do it because they are fucked up individuals. Period. Like any cad, they'll do whatever they think will get them into your size 26 panties. Any bbw who doesn't want casual sex just needs to make that clear from the start. And yeah, I know, it is frustrating when every guy a bbw comes across seems to only want sex and nothing more, but those guys do not represent all FAs and their desire isn't a reflection of us as women or as fat people.
So ladies, when it comes to dating and sex, please just remember it ain't the fat, yo. It's just the guy.
I find myself lately telling other bbws (and even some thin people) that our fat doesn't have to do with everything that that might be wrong with our sex lives. Sure, yes you are fat, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to find a decent guy. Got no man? Get up off your fat ass, step away from the computer and live life. Seriously, go out and do something. Anything. You just might come across a hot out het male en route to your volunteer job or that community theatre you're in or your pilates class (No sniggering. Yes, fat girls do pilates), and he just might think you're hot too. Hell, why not ask that hot guy you run into on a date? So what if he rejects you. There WILL be other guys. After all, isn't this what skinny girls do? Stop waiting for prince charming to fall out of the sky and save you. Stop thinking you'll find the right guy if only you could loose another 20, 75, or 200lbs. You don't have to be thin to be loved, admired, and respected as you are. Sometimes the fucked up things that happen, happen because the guy is just a fucked up person, not because you are fat.
I know what you're thinking. "...But what about the fetishists who only want to fuck and bolt?"
First of all, sometimes men who like thin women (only the ones who are jerks, not all men of course), objectify them in the same way. They get used for sex too, so it's not just you. And those kinds of fetishistic jerks who do this to fat women give FAs a bad name. To my mind those guys aren't FAs. Just loosers. They don't objectify fat girls cause we are fat, they do it because they are fucked up individuals. Period. Like any cad, they'll do whatever they think will get them into your size 26 panties. Any bbw who doesn't want casual sex just needs to make that clear from the start. And yeah, I know, it is frustrating when every guy a bbw comes across seems to only want sex and nothing more, but those guys do not represent all FAs and their desire isn't a reflection of us as women or as fat people.
So ladies, when it comes to dating and sex, please just remember it ain't the fat, yo. It's just the guy.
February 22, 2009
Thin Privilege
This phrase has been knocking around my brain for a few days now. It seems easy to convey white privilege and class privilege and gender privilege to people because these things seem universal. Every culture thruout history has experienced some version of each of those things I think. Thin privilege seems to be relatively new - in historical terms that is, and so the concept is probably something that only fat people would get immediately.
It occurred to me to put a name to what I've experienced over the years only a few days ago after a heated discussion about closeted FAs. I have zero tolerance for this kind of behavior and tolerance was being asked for in the case of someone who is young and confused as opposed to someone who is older and dates fat people in secret. I thought about how stupid it was to have to have that conversation in the first place, and about why it sems to be so hard for some people to express their desire - why do they feel ashamed, and why should they get to hide their attraction to fatness when I can't hide my fat? While they struggle with their desires in secret, they still reap the benefits of being thin, while I have to struggle over size acceptance - always have and always will - under scrutiny of the whole world. I just can't hide from myself.
Thus - thin privilege. Things that thin people take for granted are things that are often denied to me. As a fat black working class woman, this is yet another kind of privilege I won't ever benefit from. It makes me kinda mad, and I want to whine about it. Where's my emotional cushion? (and no, it isn't food.) Where's that amorphous barrier I can hide behind? This just makes me feel naked, splayed open, and totally exposed. How do you protect yourself in a sword fight without a sheild? I guess I'd just have to become a really good swordswoman. But....if no one else notices I fight well, does it still count?
Sigh.
It occurred to me to put a name to what I've experienced over the years only a few days ago after a heated discussion about closeted FAs. I have zero tolerance for this kind of behavior and tolerance was being asked for in the case of someone who is young and confused as opposed to someone who is older and dates fat people in secret. I thought about how stupid it was to have to have that conversation in the first place, and about why it sems to be so hard for some people to express their desire - why do they feel ashamed, and why should they get to hide their attraction to fatness when I can't hide my fat? While they struggle with their desires in secret, they still reap the benefits of being thin, while I have to struggle over size acceptance - always have and always will - under scrutiny of the whole world. I just can't hide from myself.
Thus - thin privilege. Things that thin people take for granted are things that are often denied to me. As a fat black working class woman, this is yet another kind of privilege I won't ever benefit from. It makes me kinda mad, and I want to whine about it. Where's my emotional cushion? (and no, it isn't food.) Where's that amorphous barrier I can hide behind? This just makes me feel naked, splayed open, and totally exposed. How do you protect yourself in a sword fight without a sheild? I guess I'd just have to become a really good swordswoman. But....if no one else notices I fight well, does it still count?
Sigh.
January 29, 2009
In Defense of FAs
Just what is an FA?
A Fat Admirer (FA) is a person of any gender and any sexual orientation who is turned on by fatness. They come in all ages, ethnicities and weights. Some like very fat people and some only like slightly fat people, some like it somewhere in the middle, and still others like it all. Some FAs like the label and some don't. Some fat people like the label and some don't, but I won't get into that debate right now.
Some FAs see their attraction as a preference. These are the people who claim they are attracted to all body types. Sometimes that range is narrow and sometimes it is very wide. I only believe this tho when the range is really wide. I'm less inclined to believe a person who says hey I like chubby people and thin people....the problem for me is the definition and usage of the word "chubby." Is it 20lbs "overweight?" 30? 50? Is that really fat in a world where the average woman is a size US size 14? And I am not Chubby, I am Fat and I don't need some silly euphamism to describe myself when there is another perfectly good word that will do.
The thing that really pisses me off tho, is the assumption by the uninitiated that all FAs are fetishists. They just assume they are all fetishists and then they ask "Why would you want to be with someone who only cares about your size?" Or worse, the fat person assumes this and says "I wouldn't want to be with anybody who only cared about my size." This just makes me want to scream! ...I admit tho, I used to be one of those people. I thought any man who wanted me only wanted me because I was their fetish. Such was my thinking. I just didn't see myself as normal. Now I know I am as normal as anyone, that anyone who is attracted to me is also normal.
.....If fat is a fetish then thinnes must be also....
First of all, FAs are not fetishists. They're just wired to love fatness. Many FAs know from very early on that they are attracted to fat people, and they don't know why. They only know they get turned on. They like what they like, and that's that. No point making with the uber deep freudian analysis. No point in trying to define the word "fetish." Doing so won't make the attraction disappear, so shhhhhhh. Come here and let me whisper something to you.......Just accept it.
Second, the people who actually do fetishize fat are not FAs in my mind. They're just cowardly masses of quivering man-boys (or lady-girls) who don't have the balls (or ovaries) to admit to other people that they like what they like. They are full of shame, confusion, and guilt. I can appreciate the difficulty in dealing with a sexuality that isn't like everybody else's, but really, how hard is it to grow a pair? These are the people who will fuck the fatty for lunch and then go and have dinner with the spouse. Those people don't count. Those people are not a relection of my fat. Those people are a product of a society in which fat is still taboo, and the men specifically are a reflection of a world where men feel entitled to have whatever they want sexually, in fact they see that desire as a birthright, and fat has fuck all to do with it. Replace the word fat with race or height, or femininity and that sense of entitlement will still be there.
Third, I AM NOT A FETISH! Repeat, FAT PEOPLE ARE NOT FETISHES!!!!!
I am a whole person, with likes and dislikes and desires and limits, and yes, I am a sexual being. I just happen to be a fat woman who likes to fuck and I like to do it dirty. Fat people everywhere thrive as sexual beings despite stereotypical examples of the sad fat fucks that are depcited in the media. We don't all sit around playing the foil to the hot thin chick, and we aren't all the fat buffoon who tricked the hot thin girl into marrying him. We don't all sit around shoving fork-lift-fulls of food into our mouths then cry about it later in the confession room of the crappy reality show. "Oh why o why couldn't I just put down that fourth slice of cake? I'll do better next time, I promise." NO! This is NOT the way. Some of us actually are comfortable with our size and we aren't afraid to show it off. Should that make me or any other fat person fetish worthy? I don't think so. I am not a fetish, the FA is not a fetishist, and neither one of us should need defending.
A Fat Admirer (FA) is a person of any gender and any sexual orientation who is turned on by fatness. They come in all ages, ethnicities and weights. Some like very fat people and some only like slightly fat people, some like it somewhere in the middle, and still others like it all. Some FAs like the label and some don't. Some fat people like the label and some don't, but I won't get into that debate right now.
Some FAs see their attraction as a preference. These are the people who claim they are attracted to all body types. Sometimes that range is narrow and sometimes it is very wide. I only believe this tho when the range is really wide. I'm less inclined to believe a person who says hey I like chubby people and thin people....the problem for me is the definition and usage of the word "chubby." Is it 20lbs "overweight?" 30? 50? Is that really fat in a world where the average woman is a size US size 14? And I am not Chubby, I am Fat and I don't need some silly euphamism to describe myself when there is another perfectly good word that will do.
The thing that really pisses me off tho, is the assumption by the uninitiated that all FAs are fetishists. They just assume they are all fetishists and then they ask "Why would you want to be with someone who only cares about your size?" Or worse, the fat person assumes this and says "I wouldn't want to be with anybody who only cared about my size." This just makes me want to scream! ...I admit tho, I used to be one of those people. I thought any man who wanted me only wanted me because I was their fetish. Such was my thinking. I just didn't see myself as normal. Now I know I am as normal as anyone, that anyone who is attracted to me is also normal.
.....If fat is a fetish then thinnes must be also....
First of all, FAs are not fetishists. They're just wired to love fatness. Many FAs know from very early on that they are attracted to fat people, and they don't know why. They only know they get turned on. They like what they like, and that's that. No point making with the uber deep freudian analysis. No point in trying to define the word "fetish." Doing so won't make the attraction disappear, so shhhhhhh. Come here and let me whisper something to you.......Just accept it.
Second, the people who actually do fetishize fat are not FAs in my mind. They're just cowardly masses of quivering man-boys (or lady-girls) who don't have the balls (or ovaries) to admit to other people that they like what they like. They are full of shame, confusion, and guilt. I can appreciate the difficulty in dealing with a sexuality that isn't like everybody else's, but really, how hard is it to grow a pair? These are the people who will fuck the fatty for lunch and then go and have dinner with the spouse. Those people don't count. Those people are not a relection of my fat. Those people are a product of a society in which fat is still taboo, and the men specifically are a reflection of a world where men feel entitled to have whatever they want sexually, in fact they see that desire as a birthright, and fat has fuck all to do with it. Replace the word fat with race or height, or femininity and that sense of entitlement will still be there.
Third, I AM NOT A FETISH! Repeat, FAT PEOPLE ARE NOT FETISHES!!!!!
I am a whole person, with likes and dislikes and desires and limits, and yes, I am a sexual being. I just happen to be a fat woman who likes to fuck and I like to do it dirty. Fat people everywhere thrive as sexual beings despite stereotypical examples of the sad fat fucks that are depcited in the media. We don't all sit around playing the foil to the hot thin chick, and we aren't all the fat buffoon who tricked the hot thin girl into marrying him. We don't all sit around shoving fork-lift-fulls of food into our mouths then cry about it later in the confession room of the crappy reality show. "Oh why o why couldn't I just put down that fourth slice of cake? I'll do better next time, I promise." NO! This is NOT the way. Some of us actually are comfortable with our size and we aren't afraid to show it off. Should that make me or any other fat person fetish worthy? I don't think so. I am not a fetish, the FA is not a fetishist, and neither one of us should need defending.
January 27, 2009
"Overweight women have more Sex"
This little bit of "science" news was reported in Novemember 2008, and originally released in the journal Obstetrics and Gynecology 2008 Sep;112(3):586-92. My reaction then was to just roll my eyes and forget about it, and it's only just now occurred to me to write about it, as I am only now filled with the righteous indignation of the WTF?!? variety. Talk about a delayed reaction.
According to this study Kanishiro, et al analyzed statistics (height and weight were self reported) from the 2002 National Survey of Family Growth to compare sexual behavior between heterosexual thin and fat women, or in the wording of the study normal weight , overweight, and obese women. After adjusting for age, income, and residence they discovered that lo and behold fat women actualy have more sex than thin women. That fat women have more sex came as a pleasant surprise, but what made me roll my eyes was their conclusion that body mass index doesn't affect sexual behaivor. Yeah, no shit? And Kaneshiro's response really irked me, especially since she is a woman: "These results were unexpected and we don't really know why this is the case."
First of all, do we really need to do a study to find out that women actually like sex? Seems like common knowledge to me. They don't know why fat women would have more sex than thin women?? Is this a question that really needs to be answered? Really? That a stereotype can't be backed up by a study should be common knowledge not news.
:::long sigh:::
How about this as a reason fat chicks like to do it and actually enjoy it: we might worry less about our appearance than our thin counterparts and as a result we are happier and more comfortable with ourselves, ergo we worry less about whether or not our partners actually think we're sexy and we have more fun in bed. And maybe, just maybe, our partners like our bodies so much, that they can't keep their hands to themselves, you know what with our fat bodies being softer and such. Sounds crazy huh? Crazy enough to be backed up by proof. Oy.
One good thing that probably will come of the study is something one of the researchers recommend GYNs should do: to never make assumptions about their patients' sexual behaviors based on outward appearances. Sadly, this is advice GYNs need to hear. More than once I've gotten shocked looks from GYNs when I've asked about birth control methods. I've even had one doctor tell me I didn't need it. A doctor just shouldn't have to be reminded that their patients are human. These kinds of experiences have lead me to switch doctors often...sad, I know.
According to this study Kanishiro, et al analyzed statistics (height and weight were self reported) from the 2002 National Survey of Family Growth to compare sexual behavior between heterosexual thin and fat women, or in the wording of the study normal weight , overweight, and obese women. After adjusting for age, income, and residence they discovered that lo and behold fat women actualy have more sex than thin women. That fat women have more sex came as a pleasant surprise, but what made me roll my eyes was their conclusion that body mass index doesn't affect sexual behaivor. Yeah, no shit? And Kaneshiro's response really irked me, especially since she is a woman: "These results were unexpected and we don't really know why this is the case."
First of all, do we really need to do a study to find out that women actually like sex? Seems like common knowledge to me. They don't know why fat women would have more sex than thin women?? Is this a question that really needs to be answered? Really? That a stereotype can't be backed up by a study should be common knowledge not news.
:::long sigh:::
How about this as a reason fat chicks like to do it and actually enjoy it: we might worry less about our appearance than our thin counterparts and as a result we are happier and more comfortable with ourselves, ergo we worry less about whether or not our partners actually think we're sexy and we have more fun in bed. And maybe, just maybe, our partners like our bodies so much, that they can't keep their hands to themselves, you know what with our fat bodies being softer and such. Sounds crazy huh? Crazy enough to be backed up by proof. Oy.
One good thing that probably will come of the study is something one of the researchers recommend GYNs should do: to never make assumptions about their patients' sexual behaviors based on outward appearances. Sadly, this is advice GYNs need to hear. More than once I've gotten shocked looks from GYNs when I've asked about birth control methods. I've even had one doctor tell me I didn't need it. A doctor just shouldn't have to be reminded that their patients are human. These kinds of experiences have lead me to switch doctors often...sad, I know.
January 10, 2009
It's been a while....
...I know. Life and all. For the few people who've read my posts and have emailed or commented to say they hope I write more, I will be doing just that this year. I plan to output at least one post a month, more if I've something to say. I wanted to focus mostly on the sexual aspects of being fat and liking fatness, but sometimes I wanted to comment on non-sexual goings on in the fativerse, but didn't since I feel there is plenty of that already, who needs more of that right now? I don't.
For a while I thought maybe there's only so much to say regarding fat sexuality - and I do consider it a sexuality (a topic for a later post) - but I'm starting to think that, no, there's plenty to say. After all, sex, dating, and relationship concerns are always going to be in the hearts and minds of everyone. When you're fat or when you like fat, it's even more fraught with doubts and hangups and longings gone unanswered and ignored. It's unlikely those fears are going to disappear completely for us anytime soon. I hope to explore it more in the future. I invite questions and comments whatever they are: send an email to ckaricai@aol.com.
Anyhow, thanks for reading, and stay tuned...
October 12, 2008
Who wears the fat in your relationship?
This is a post I made to a forum thread about partner's weight loss and reactions to that weight loss, in a forum for size acceptance and size adimiration. Note BBW=big beautiful woman; BHM=big handsome man; FFA=Female Fat Admirer; FA=Fat Admirer:
Me:
This is complicated. It is clear that you care about your wife, and you want to do the right thing...I keep getting stuck on the fact that you feel you are the proprietor of her fat, but you know, you are not. She is. If she doesn't like it, you just have to learn to live without it - the way you did when you met her.
I don't believe you should suppress your feelings outright, and I do feel she has an obligation to make you happy, as you do her...perhaps there is a way to fulfill parts of your fantasy without her actually gaining any weight. You wouldn't get all of what you want, but you could get some of it. Buy her a few items of clothing that are too tight; only feed her at mealtimes and then only food she's deemed appropriate. I don't know....does she like the fantasy element as much as you do? Is the weight gain the only thing she objects to? Does she have some fantasy you are not comfortable with? Perhaps you could compromise about it if she does....I'm not sure how helpful any of this is, but I thought I'd just throw it out there...
Edit: I wanted to add....you know, I know how I felt after I lost 100lbs. I started that journey three years ago and tho I'm still very fat, I still haven't adjusted to certain everyday aspects of having a slightly smaller body...gaining and loosing weight is a serious adjustment for anybody. It affects all aspects of your life. It's difficult to just turn off feelings and cues you've had about your body for so long even after it's changed shape. I know I can go up a flight of stairs without being out of breath or without leg cramps, but I still cringe whenever I meet a flight of stairs and I'm still surprised when I get to the top without problems....I don't know that I'll ever get used to that. And that's just one thing....What I'm saying is that for your wife (not to speak for her, but just conjecturing) the weight gain may not have just been about feeling iky about how she looked. She could have just not gotten used to all the profound adjustments she had to make in her new body. Dunno....even if I loved someone a great deal I don't know that I could sustain such adjustments just to make him happy....seems like too much of a sacrifice....
Below is the text of an email conversation I had with a thin FFA as a result of this post. The conversation touched on some more aspects of being in a relationship with a fat person when the fat person wants to loose weight. I'm in green and she is in black.
FFA:
Thank you for this post. Especially the personal part after the edit. It was really profound and moving for me. I think all FAs should be required to read it.
Me:
I'm not sure how it's profound, but I'm glad you found it helpful.
FFA:
I think from the FA perspective the combination of you pointing out that we can be a little proprietary sometimes about our partner's weight and then reading of the huge difference that losing weight made on your life and the positive impact it had, it just really hit me. I mean, even I who am somewhat more enlightened than a lot of FAs (I like to think anyway ;) ) had never really thought about it in terms of feeling proprietary. I would always support a partner's weight loss if they wanted or needed it, of course, but as FAs we often get wrapped up in our own feelings of disappointment, or adjustment about that issue. I think sometimes we give ourselves too much of a pass when it comes to examining those feelings. We are so busy affirming for ourselves that it is our sexuality and there is nothing wrong with it (and there IS nothing wrong with it of course) but we do forget sometimes to take all of the information in together and really think about how important being able to climb stairs without pain (or any other challenge for a fat person) can be. The juxtaposition of your points really hit me all at once and crystallized that notion for me. So thank you. That's why I found it very profound.
Me:
Wow, I didn't realize those feelings of propriety were so common. He just kept saying things like "I let her loose" or "I let her gain" like he has total control over it. I figured it was just him being the kind of guy who has trouble separating his dick from his brain, or...It's also a bit dominant, you know, male Doms say things like "You can rub My clit." They like to do and say things to remind the sub who they belong to, but he didn't seem like that kind of dominant, so I kinda dismissed that. He really does seem to care.
Anyway, I'm starting to really really see how complicated being an FA really really can be...it's kinda overwhelming. I mean, I feel like admitting it out in the open shouldn't be such an issue, okay, but it's all the stuff after that. I knew that stuff wasn't easy, but damn, I didn't think it was this mixed up either. You know what I mean? I knew but I didn't KNOW.
I have always felt that someone who is an FA ought to understand what it is like to be a fat person, or understand what we go thru sometimes. I know that this isn't always the case, and it used to baffle me, but now I kind of understand why. Some FAs get so caught up in their sexuality that they really have trouble seeing past it. The fat person they desire is the most beautiful thing in the world and they can't seem to get past the fact that not everybody sees it that way, for good or ill, not even the fat person.
The last few FA related threads I've participated in, the ones that have gotten heated, have made me realize that it might be unrealistic to expect that kind of understanding from any FA...I don't know. What *do* you do when your sexuality is tied up in stuff that might make the other person miserable? How *do* you reconcile that guilt? How can an FA not know or understand how being fat is wrapped up in everything about who the fat person is?
And I know there are fat people(...)who insist that their fat doesn't have much of anything to do with who they are and I don't buy that bullshit. How can it not? How in the hell can(...)any other fat person walk around and pretend like their fat doesn't exist or that people won't treat them a certain way because of it? Or that a non-FA's love would somehow be more pure because that person loves the fat person despite the fat? I'd rather a guy loved me and my fat.
Anyway, Okay, sorry about that last bit, I went on a bit of a rant. Eh, I don't mean to be a downer here. I guess I have a lot on my mind these days....
FFA:
I understand what you mean about this being disorienting, this FA/fat person thing. That's why I always say we sometimes see things so differently regarding the FA's attraction and that is why I try to be so open on the boards. I honestly think there is a constant need for us to reach out to each other and explain ourselves and figure ourselves out as FAs and as fat people who interact with/get romantically involved with FAs. I saw a lot of myself in the OP (original poster) of that thread. Not because I believe I have a proprietary right to anyone else's body, but because there IS always that little tug of war in my brain regarding partner weight loss and body image issues. In terms of feelings, I would never want to be with someone who was struggling or who was unhappy, yet at the same time, some fat people are constantly navigating the line of self acceptance and that can be a tricky thing to think about as an FA. It's confusing, knowing that the person you care about is glad you're there and feel the way that you do, but if a magic wand could wave them into thinness, they would probably take it. That's the extreme idea, but along the way, are issues like weight loss that still leaves a person fat, but not as fat. Sometimes I wonder if I'm a detriment to someone I love because I am an FA, then sometimes I think that what really matters is that I love the person and that is what is most important and because I also love their size, that gives them the freedom to feel more comfortable with themselves in their own skin. And I also find that for all the talk of being an FA and thinking about being an FA, I do really see a person far more than I see a fat person. Does that make sense? So sometimes I think it is just a preference, but it is a preference that has a profound impact on the fat partner's life in every way and that makes me feel odd and uncertain sometimes. The average non FA probably never has to feel like that. They can probably take it on faith that if they are crazy about a person and want to make them happy, then they are the best partner for that person. FAs don't always have that certainty. It really can be confusing from the FA side. I mean for me, I can just say that I would rather a partner be smaller and happier, but I do know that in terms of pure arousal, there will be a greater response to a heavier man. Does that make sense? Still I would want the person to be happy. And, keeping with the general theme here, I DO know it's actually none of my business whatsoever. I know that, I believe that and I feel that. But I still have a preference in terms of a partner's body and so if that changes, there will always be an adjustment to go through for me. I wish that wasn't true, because it does make me feel like I'm being proprietary, but I can't help the feeling. And from what I read of other FAs(...)I am not alone in this.
So, I guess my point is when we say these things, it doesn't always mean we feel we are entitled to say them or feel that way about our partners' bodies, but we feel how we feel. That is why this is the sort of topic an FA would bring up on the board. That OP was wrestling with it because we know intellectually it shouldn't be this difficult, it shouldn't be a problem for us at all, it's not our body, but we still feel these strong emotions. And then everyone's favorite topic FA guilt sets in. This was the sort of topic that I was talking about back when we were having the discussion about a possible FA board that I said might come across offensive or strange, but that are a true part of the FA experience. Even the nice FAs find themselves feeling this way from time to time. This is the sort of thing that I think a lot of FAs need to discuss with other FAs (I don't mean fat people shouldn't have input, I just mean we as FAs need to support each other about these sort of inner conflicts more.)
And you are right about the fact that for a thin FA, no matter how much we think we understand and try actively to learn and understand about fat people's experiences, it still seems like there is so much more we need to know. So thank you for being one of the people who is willing to patiently and eloquently explain these things to us. I can tell you from my point of view, what I know intellectually is still not sufficient. I mean, I am empathetic enough to understand that being fat influences everything about a person's life and identity, but never having been fat myself, what that REALLY means, especially emotionally, is something that I can only understand if others explain it to me. Not because I don't care, but just because I have never been to that place myself.
For me personally, I've reconciled a lot of guilt by knowing that what I do is what matters. As long as what matters most to me is that the person I love is happy and I support whatever that means for him in any way that I can, then I think it is OK for me to not beat myself up over every uncomfortable FA thought. That's just how I see it anyway.
Anyway, I have now ALSO brought the tone down. :p But I just wanted to say that I really appreciate that you and I can talk openly about this. It helps me to understand as much as I can and I hope you feel the same.
Me:
Wow, thank you for this PM (private message). (...)You're right in that we all do need to make an effort to understand each other. I'd say you do a good job trying to do that. I'm trying really hard to be more empathetic and not just to some types of FAs either.
I'm interested in knowing what the issues are that you're dealing with right now, but if you don't want to expand on that, I understand. All the things you've said here make a lot of sense to me. You like what you like.
(...)
FFA:
I completely "get" what you're saying about feeling like two people in one body. That's the thing I think I have finally really "heard" from people (on the forum) that I never quite understood before. I would imagine it would be very difficult to adjust to all of the changes that significant weight loss would bring. It also makes perfect sense that there might be hesitation about an FA if the fat person expects weight loss to still be part of their future. That feeling of not wanting to be in the same situation but in reverse, now they're too thin, that does make perfect sense. The only thing that I sometimes wonder about is why it seems that both fat admirers and fat people who may get involved with them seem to feel this point more than others. By that I mean, anyone has to accept the possibility that their partner may change size during the course of a relationship, but for us it always seems fraught with greater meaning and I wonder if that is because fat is such an emotional issue. And I don't just mean for fat people, there is the fatphobic culture, the "war on obesity" and countless other things that make this seem so all consuming to us sometimes. I would also guess that for most fat people there has been the idea of weight loss in the back of their mind for a lot of their lives and maybe being with a fat admirer feels like committing to giving that option away? I don't know if I explained that right, but I think you know what I mean. And believe me, I know from the Fat admirer side that we spend so much time sorting this all out that the idea of partner weight loss seems much more complicated than it should probably be for us as well. But there are no guarantees and no one stays the same forever anyway, so sometimes I think it is better to just jump in. I sometimes feel everyone (including myself) in the size acceptance universe spends too much time worrying about what if and worrying too much about relationships in the abstract. I don't know, it's confusing. I agree love is sometimes not enough. (...)but it still feels like things get overly complicated sometimes in the, to use your term, "fativerse" (I love that term by the way. ;))
I feel sometimes like the more I understand, and the "better" a fat admirer I become, the less likely I am to ever have a relationship that works. :P I know that's not true, but sometimes it sure feels that way. It's strange because for me, as a fat admirer, finding that world and developing that identity has been very powerful and liberating to me. Especially because there are so many fat admirers male and female who I really like (on the forum). And that makes me feel better about having the feelings I have. It helps with the guilt and the questions of whether or not I would be good for (...)any fat man in my life. Yet at the same time, I feel that the more I understand about the lives and inner lives of fat people and formerly fat people and all the varieties that that includes, the more I become confused about how to navigate these thorny issues. In other words, it seems like some of these things will be a part of most relationships, it's just a matter of degree. One man may want to lose a little weight, one a lot of weight, but these various issues of his feelings about himself and about me and on and on seem to always be present. And I don't mean just for me, I mean for all of these fat admirer/fat person relationships. It's true that no one, no matter how much love and desire they have, can ever make another person truly comfortable in their own skin, no matter how much all of us fat admirers wish we could make it so. I guess the best thing is to develop and establish a good and solid foundation and then whatever happens later, both partners have to be open to the possibility of change. That's true for anyone in any long term relationship, so why should we expect to be different, right? :) Still, I can understand why for fat partners in particular that may be a slightly more "loaded" concept from an emotional stand point. And there are fat admirers who are much more rigid about needing people to be a certain size, etc, so like anything it ultimately comes back to individuals. I guess the ultimate guidebook I keep hoping for, that will tell me exactly what to do, is never going to fall from the sky, huh? :P
On a non- relationship note, one thing that has really hit me since being (on the forum) is how TRULY badly and even differently fat people are treated. I mean, I never was so naïve as to think it was easy to be fat, but some things really do astonish me. Not just the insults from strangers, but the way it seems that so many people seem to think they have the right to butt into a fat person's business because they are fat. That is just astonishing to me. Also, my family is crazy, but in general, we don't get on anyone's case about their appearance for any reason. Fat, thin, dress alternatively, what have you. So the idea of constantly getting harassed by the people close to you really makes it seem sometimes like fat people can be under constant assault. I can understand why cynicism and skepticism can so easily creep in under such conditions. And that's before you get to any physical issues and limitations. I guess that's why I thought your post was so important for fat admirers to read. The idea that being heavier had caused certain actions to be such an ordeal for you that even now, having lost weight, you still feel that dread, that was a very eye opening concept for me. I think a lot of thin fat admirers do care but don't understand. And because we really don't understand, sometimes we don't even know the questions to ask. Or the issues to think about. I'm not saying there aren't jerks, lord knows there are plenty of those(...)but I think sometimes we don't understand why we aren't better understood by fat people, or why fat people can be suspicious of us AS A WHOLE, and I think it's because there is so often so much we don't understand and then when we reveal that we don't understand we seem insensitive. But sometimes it is just ignorance and not willful ignorance as with some topics, but actual honest to God, "I never even thought about that" ignorance. That's why I really appreciate it when someone such as yourself not only is open on the boards, but wants to have those discussions with fat admirers. That's why I try to do my part on my end. There's so much to understand. And there are some great people in both groups (on the forum) and I think as we work together to figure ourselves and each other out, it makes us all stronger in our own positions and lives. And then there is the whole issue of those of us who support size acceptance versus, you know, society, so helping to strengthen the community is important, I feel. And it seems that every time some of us really open up, we move a little bit farther forward. But it sure can take a lot out of you, huh?
Me:
You know, after I read this email from you, I think it might be good to start a thread - "two people, one body" and ask the other members how they feel about it and what their expectations are going into relationships. So much of the discussion would have to be abstract tho, since there are a lot of fat people who have never been in relationships well into adulthood whether they've lost weight or not...or there are FA's who've never had the chance to be in relationships with the fat people they're so turned on by for whatever reasons....i think it might be interesting. Anyway, I'm not sure how many people would open up or be willing to contribute or what turns that kind of thread would take.
Perhaps there is so much meaning with us all because so much of it is wrapped up in who we all are. To loose a part of yourself or change a huge part of yourself whether you like it or not, or whether you have control over it or not is just traumatic. If I loose weight, who will I be? If I'm not fat, then who am I? What is the skinny me like? I'm guessing for an FA it's, If I'm turned on by fat and that makes me X, what would I be if the fat were gone? Even tho you don't wear the fat, it is still part of who you are....could this contribute to such feelings of ownership?
Without that defining thing, there is confusion and imbalance, and chaos. And people like stability and hate change. What happens tho when a person doesn't want to think of the fat as a defining trait? I'm just not sure how that's really possible. I don't see how any of this can't be complicated.
And you know, I honestly think fat men can have such different issues than fat women that the relationship dynamics might require a different set of coping mechanisms.
I don't understand why so many of them don't get that tho they have to deal with body and images issues too, women are under more pressure. I get that all the feminizing aspects of fat take can away from their "manhood," but the same is true for women: the masculinizing affects can take away from a woman's womanhood. I think the problem is that the hold on a straight man's manhood is often tenuous to begin with (such is our culture), whereas a woman's is not. I just wonder how that affects the relationship dynamic...some men don't feel manly if they express their feelings. If they're already not feeling manly because their fat....I'm rambling now I think.
I gotta say, I do think you are defineitly one of the more enlightened FA's around the boards. Maybe you should get together with a few of the other more mature and knowledgable FAs and actually write an FA Guidebook. Self-publish it. I'd buy a copy.
FFA:
Pardon the clunky way that I am going to quote your email and then respond, but I thought you made some really good points and I wanted to respond point by point this time.
“You know, after I read this email from you, I think it might be good to start a thread - "two people, one body" and ask the other members how they feel about it and what their expectations are going into relationships. So much of the discussion would have to be abstract tho, since there are a lot of fat people who have never been in relationships well into adulthood whether they've lost weight or not...or there are FA's who've never had the chance to be in relationships with the fat people they're so turned on by for whatever reasons....i think it might be interesting. Anyway, I'm not sure how many people would open up or be willing to contribute or what turns that kind of thread would take.”
I think you’re right that it would be interesting to hear the responses, but I too wonder how open people would be about that issue. I think that’s one of those “big issues” lurking behind the FA/fat people debates. Sadly, it seems those are the issues that are so difficult to get everyone to discuss honestly. Also, I wonder if the fact that there are couples and friends who “cross” those lines would make people hesitant to be totally honest. As for the people who haven’t been in relationships, I think that is a major factor in some of the tension on the boards sometimes. I think a lot of people are holding onto ideals without understanding how things often work out in real life. Partnerships, especially long partnerships are so open to change over time. The people change and not just physically. Also, I think that when you’re in a long term relationship you start to understand things that you may not have about the other person. I think a lot of times in life we tend to think most people come somewhat from our perspective, even if we don’t always get along with them. And, of course, most of how we behave and view the world stems from our upbringing. When you live with someone or marry them you are setting up a new “family” in a way and your views and theirs are going to merge, occasionally collide, one of you may change the others way of thinking (not through force, I mean, just because they never thought about looking at things in a certain way before), etc. So I think sometimes there is a lot of thought about the ABSTRACT and not about the fact that each relationship will be different based on who is involved. I think that is why sometimes it seems that some people on the board are always making arguments that seem almost ideological, and not based on experience. Ideals are wonderful, but reality is often full of compromise. I get the feeling...a few people...need more “real relationship” experience to better understand that some of the things said are not as disturbing as they may sound in the abstract. And I am talking both directions. I think a lot of the FA hand wringing and guilt and fear and worrying about what people will say or think etc comes from that fact that some of the FA s haven’t actually been with someone they are in love with. They are not thinking about a person, they are thinking about a concept. And it seems sometimes everyone over thinks things because there is no reality to hold it all in place.
I also wonder how many fat people would be able to articulate the feeling of being two people in one body. Would that be too personal? Would they be too afraid of coming across less than size positive if they felt things were easier/better when they are smaller? I often think that causes some topics to be avoided as well. There is this idea that to state being smaller (not small, or thin, but smaller) is somehow going against what (the forum) stands for. I think that is BS, but I get the feeling sometimes that people feel very on guard discussing comparisons of their own size past and present. I don’t think that should stop anyone from discussing it, but I often wonder if that is why it is so rare.
“Perhaps there is so much meaning with us all because so much of it is wrapped up in who we all are. To loose a part of yourself or change a huge part of yourself whether you like it or not, or whether you have control over it or not is just traumatic. If I loose weight, who will I be? If I'm not fat, then who am I? What is the skinny me like? I'm guessing for an FA it's, If I'm turned on by fat and that makes me X, what would I be if the fat were gone? Even tho you don't wear the fat, it is still part of who you are....could this contribute to such feelings of ownership?”
From the FA side, I have to say, you hit it right on the head, I think. It is not a feeling of ownership of “the fat” in a lot of cases. Of course there are those who feel that way, but I think when you see a genuinely nice FA express things that sound proprietary, it is because fat is part of our identity too even if we are thin. It is our sexuality and for a partner to lose weight does impact our identity. It makes us wonder about things. Not only because it is often difficult to understand we are FAs in the first place, and to go through all of our self acceptance, but also because once you know that’s what you like, you wonder what it means if you don’t get to express the love of fat anymore. By the same token, most of us are not so shallow as to expect a partner to stay the same so it makes it confusing. There is a certain “shallowness” to being a fat admirer because it does deal with something so physical. And most of us can’t help what turns us on, so it is putting someone in the position of choosing who they love versus what turns them on. Now that happens to other people all the time, but because we come to identify ourselves as FAs and to become proud of who we are and maybe even political about size acceptance, etc, it can really throw a person for a loop, when a partner loses weight, I think.
There is also, I think for some, a slight sense that the fat person is rejecting the part of us that is FA. I don’t mean in any way to imply that this thinking is right, or fair, but I think there is often a certain feeling of hurt and rejection. Basically, because it feels like the partner really was unhappy fat and maybe you contributed to their unhappiness. That also leads to the guilt bubbling up again, and then most thinking, feeling FAs will have some trouble and some issues. I don’t think these are insurmountable problems, or doom all relationships with FAs, but I do think it is what many of the partners who have a partner lose weight are actually trying to say. Not “how dare she/he lose weight!” But “what does it say about me that I’m this conflicted?” “And how unhappy was he/she that whole time when I thought things were great?” “And would he/she have been better off with a non FA all along?” Also the fear of feeling shallow and not knowing how to handle a life spent with a thin partner. I understand these things are in reality not our business because it is not our body, but it is not easy to just shrug it all off and not feel any sense of loss or confusion. I think it can be worked through, but I do think the FAs are wrestling with issues that are much deeper than feelings of ownership of their partner’s bodies. I wish more people would understand that. I think more FAs would get the support that they need if they weren’t always being accused of feeling they control their wives bodies. And again, when I say FAs should get support it is not only for the sake of the FA. For every man or woman FA struggling with this issue, there is a BBW (big beautiful woman) or BHM (big handsome man) partner who is on the other end of the relationship and I think if the FA gets support it will make things a little easier and these are situations so difficult that every little bit would help.
“And you know, I honestly think fat men can have such different issues than fat women that the relationship dynamics might require a different set of coping mechanisms.
I don't understand why so many of them don't get that tho they have to deal with body and images issues too, women are under more pressure. I get that all the feminizing aspects of fat take can away from their "manhood," but the same is true for women: the masculinizing affects can take away from a woman's womanhood. I thnk the problem is that the hold on a straight man's manhood is often tenuous to begin with (such is our culture), whereas a woman's is not. I just wonder how that affects the relationship dynamic...some men don't feel manly if they express their feelings. If they're already not feeling manly because their fat....I'm rambling now I think.”
I think some of the BHM do understand that women receive more pressure for their weight. I think that sometimes the issue seems crazier on (the forum) than it really is because the men get so busy defending the fact that they even have problems and they lose track of their arguments. However, I think the feelings of being told you’re unattractive, or less than are universal to fat people. For the men I think there is the added feeling of people treating them like children if they’re over a certain size, or not being as mobile if they’re over a certain size and therefore they are limited in some of the traditionally male tasks, etc. I mean, I could see how a man who needs his thin FA wife to drop him off at the door of a store or something might feel confused about his role in a relationship. The same would be true for a BBW, but I think for men there is the added societal expectation of capability that they have to wrestle with feeling that they don’t meet. I think that’s where the men maybe have a harder time in society. That their competence is questioned due to their size. I don’t mean men and women should have certain gender roles, but I still think those roles do lurk in a lot of people’s minds and impacts how they view/judge others. I also don’t think most of the BHM I have known in real life or on the boards are chauvinists by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, I find it quite the opposite. But I still think they get judged harshly, just on different criteria. It just seems that they don’t articulate that criteria very well and then everyone thinks they’re talking about being judged harshly in the same way as women and I don’t think they are talking about “in the same way”, I think it just seems that way. It is about gender identity, but I think it impacts men and women differently, and I don’t know that one makes life any easier than the other. I know you are understanding when the men speak, so I am not preaching at you, just thinking it through. I always think it’s a shame that more of the BHM don’t participate on the boards, but BHM are so shy in general, they really are. It’s one of the most frustrating things about being an FFA, believe me. But I think there would be so much that the BBW and BHM could support each other about. It seems a missed opportunity. I think it would make the community stronger. But as a thin FA, that’s not really my territory to cover. :)
“I gotta say, I do think you are defineitly one of the more enlightened FA's around the boards. Maybe you should get together with a few of the other more mature and knowledgable FAs and actually write an FA Guidebook. Self-publish it. I'd buy a copy."
You know, I’ve actually thought about that. Actually (name removed) and I once discussed an essay based part of the forum for FAs in the wake of the FA board discussion. It might be interesting to collect some of our thoughts and writings. I am always tempted because I always get such positive feedback from BBW and young (usually male) FA whenever I write one of my long, honest posts and it makes me think that there is a desire/need for a book. I am always amazed when a young male FA says I expressed exactly what he was thinking/feeling. It makes me realize FAs ARE a specific group with a lot in common and I know many of us feel alone, male and female for a long time. Maybe I will talk to some of the really smart and literate FAs male and female and see if we can get something together. I think there certainly seems to be a need. I also often wonder how many female FAs never even realize what they are because women might be less inclined to seek out information about their sexual feelings on the internet. Maybe books are a good way to reach out to others. It also would allow BBW and BHM to read our thoughts without the risk of someone derailing the thread or putting someone on the defensive, etc. It would give a clearer picture because it would be on topic and unchallenged, which would make it more honest. From you and other BBW/BHM who have discussed reading what the FAs write, I get the feeling honesty is what most are looking for. You want to KNOW us and understand us. I think that can be easier if you are not getting asked crazy questions or accused of things or have a negative spin from out of left field thrown at your post. I believe everyone’s input is important, but sometimes I feel like you can’t have a thorough discussion because, the one who is anti-feeder has to chime in, then the one who is anti-FA, then the man hater(, etc,) but I think sometimes we have trouble keeping a thread going long enough to get a lot of discussion out in the open. And it can be hard to have an honest dialog when the aforementioned types keep tripping everyone up with things that are totally off topic. And they do that to EVERYONE.
Me:
Oh my God, You Rock!
I think this exact conversation we've been having is what should be posted in that two people one body thread I want to start. It is near perfect the way it is. It's honest and touches on what should be opened up for discussion. Even if only two or three people contribute, it would still be good to get it out there? If not on the board, then can I use it for my blog? What do you think?
FFA:
Oh, you can absolutely use this for your blog. If you want to put it on (the forum), I will check in and see how you start the thread and contribute as well.
:)
Me:
This is complicated. It is clear that you care about your wife, and you want to do the right thing...I keep getting stuck on the fact that you feel you are the proprietor of her fat, but you know, you are not. She is. If she doesn't like it, you just have to learn to live without it - the way you did when you met her.
I don't believe you should suppress your feelings outright, and I do feel she has an obligation to make you happy, as you do her...perhaps there is a way to fulfill parts of your fantasy without her actually gaining any weight. You wouldn't get all of what you want, but you could get some of it. Buy her a few items of clothing that are too tight; only feed her at mealtimes and then only food she's deemed appropriate. I don't know....does she like the fantasy element as much as you do? Is the weight gain the only thing she objects to? Does she have some fantasy you are not comfortable with? Perhaps you could compromise about it if she does....I'm not sure how helpful any of this is, but I thought I'd just throw it out there...
Edit: I wanted to add....you know, I know how I felt after I lost 100lbs. I started that journey three years ago and tho I'm still very fat, I still haven't adjusted to certain everyday aspects of having a slightly smaller body...gaining and loosing weight is a serious adjustment for anybody. It affects all aspects of your life. It's difficult to just turn off feelings and cues you've had about your body for so long even after it's changed shape. I know I can go up a flight of stairs without being out of breath or without leg cramps, but I still cringe whenever I meet a flight of stairs and I'm still surprised when I get to the top without problems....I don't know that I'll ever get used to that. And that's just one thing....What I'm saying is that for your wife (not to speak for her, but just conjecturing) the weight gain may not have just been about feeling iky about how she looked. She could have just not gotten used to all the profound adjustments she had to make in her new body. Dunno....even if I loved someone a great deal I don't know that I could sustain such adjustments just to make him happy....seems like too much of a sacrifice....
Below is the text of an email conversation I had with a thin FFA as a result of this post. The conversation touched on some more aspects of being in a relationship with a fat person when the fat person wants to loose weight. I'm in green and she is in black.
FFA:
Thank you for this post. Especially the personal part after the edit. It was really profound and moving for me. I think all FAs should be required to read it.
Me:
I'm not sure how it's profound, but I'm glad you found it helpful.
FFA:
I think from the FA perspective the combination of you pointing out that we can be a little proprietary sometimes about our partner's weight and then reading of the huge difference that losing weight made on your life and the positive impact it had, it just really hit me. I mean, even I who am somewhat more enlightened than a lot of FAs (I like to think anyway ;) ) had never really thought about it in terms of feeling proprietary. I would always support a partner's weight loss if they wanted or needed it, of course, but as FAs we often get wrapped up in our own feelings of disappointment, or adjustment about that issue. I think sometimes we give ourselves too much of a pass when it comes to examining those feelings. We are so busy affirming for ourselves that it is our sexuality and there is nothing wrong with it (and there IS nothing wrong with it of course) but we do forget sometimes to take all of the information in together and really think about how important being able to climb stairs without pain (or any other challenge for a fat person) can be. The juxtaposition of your points really hit me all at once and crystallized that notion for me. So thank you. That's why I found it very profound.
Me:
Wow, I didn't realize those feelings of propriety were so common. He just kept saying things like "I let her loose" or "I let her gain" like he has total control over it. I figured it was just him being the kind of guy who has trouble separating his dick from his brain, or...It's also a bit dominant, you know, male Doms say things like "You can rub My clit." They like to do and say things to remind the sub who they belong to, but he didn't seem like that kind of dominant, so I kinda dismissed that. He really does seem to care.
Anyway, I'm starting to really really see how complicated being an FA really really can be...it's kinda overwhelming. I mean, I feel like admitting it out in the open shouldn't be such an issue, okay, but it's all the stuff after that. I knew that stuff wasn't easy, but damn, I didn't think it was this mixed up either. You know what I mean? I knew but I didn't KNOW.
I have always felt that someone who is an FA ought to understand what it is like to be a fat person, or understand what we go thru sometimes. I know that this isn't always the case, and it used to baffle me, but now I kind of understand why. Some FAs get so caught up in their sexuality that they really have trouble seeing past it. The fat person they desire is the most beautiful thing in the world and they can't seem to get past the fact that not everybody sees it that way, for good or ill, not even the fat person.
The last few FA related threads I've participated in, the ones that have gotten heated, have made me realize that it might be unrealistic to expect that kind of understanding from any FA...I don't know. What *do* you do when your sexuality is tied up in stuff that might make the other person miserable? How *do* you reconcile that guilt? How can an FA not know or understand how being fat is wrapped up in everything about who the fat person is?
And I know there are fat people(...)who insist that their fat doesn't have much of anything to do with who they are and I don't buy that bullshit. How can it not? How in the hell can(...)any other fat person walk around and pretend like their fat doesn't exist or that people won't treat them a certain way because of it? Or that a non-FA's love would somehow be more pure because that person loves the fat person despite the fat? I'd rather a guy loved me and my fat.
Anyway, Okay, sorry about that last bit, I went on a bit of a rant. Eh, I don't mean to be a downer here. I guess I have a lot on my mind these days....
FFA:
I understand what you mean about this being disorienting, this FA/fat person thing. That's why I always say we sometimes see things so differently regarding the FA's attraction and that is why I try to be so open on the boards. I honestly think there is a constant need for us to reach out to each other and explain ourselves and figure ourselves out as FAs and as fat people who interact with/get romantically involved with FAs. I saw a lot of myself in the OP (original poster) of that thread. Not because I believe I have a proprietary right to anyone else's body, but because there IS always that little tug of war in my brain regarding partner weight loss and body image issues. In terms of feelings, I would never want to be with someone who was struggling or who was unhappy, yet at the same time, some fat people are constantly navigating the line of self acceptance and that can be a tricky thing to think about as an FA. It's confusing, knowing that the person you care about is glad you're there and feel the way that you do, but if a magic wand could wave them into thinness, they would probably take it. That's the extreme idea, but along the way, are issues like weight loss that still leaves a person fat, but not as fat. Sometimes I wonder if I'm a detriment to someone I love because I am an FA, then sometimes I think that what really matters is that I love the person and that is what is most important and because I also love their size, that gives them the freedom to feel more comfortable with themselves in their own skin. And I also find that for all the talk of being an FA and thinking about being an FA, I do really see a person far more than I see a fat person. Does that make sense? So sometimes I think it is just a preference, but it is a preference that has a profound impact on the fat partner's life in every way and that makes me feel odd and uncertain sometimes. The average non FA probably never has to feel like that. They can probably take it on faith that if they are crazy about a person and want to make them happy, then they are the best partner for that person. FAs don't always have that certainty. It really can be confusing from the FA side. I mean for me, I can just say that I would rather a partner be smaller and happier, but I do know that in terms of pure arousal, there will be a greater response to a heavier man. Does that make sense? Still I would want the person to be happy. And, keeping with the general theme here, I DO know it's actually none of my business whatsoever. I know that, I believe that and I feel that. But I still have a preference in terms of a partner's body and so if that changes, there will always be an adjustment to go through for me. I wish that wasn't true, because it does make me feel like I'm being proprietary, but I can't help the feeling. And from what I read of other FAs(...)I am not alone in this.
So, I guess my point is when we say these things, it doesn't always mean we feel we are entitled to say them or feel that way about our partners' bodies, but we feel how we feel. That is why this is the sort of topic an FA would bring up on the board. That OP was wrestling with it because we know intellectually it shouldn't be this difficult, it shouldn't be a problem for us at all, it's not our body, but we still feel these strong emotions. And then everyone's favorite topic FA guilt sets in. This was the sort of topic that I was talking about back when we were having the discussion about a possible FA board that I said might come across offensive or strange, but that are a true part of the FA experience. Even the nice FAs find themselves feeling this way from time to time. This is the sort of thing that I think a lot of FAs need to discuss with other FAs (I don't mean fat people shouldn't have input, I just mean we as FAs need to support each other about these sort of inner conflicts more.)
And you are right about the fact that for a thin FA, no matter how much we think we understand and try actively to learn and understand about fat people's experiences, it still seems like there is so much more we need to know. So thank you for being one of the people who is willing to patiently and eloquently explain these things to us. I can tell you from my point of view, what I know intellectually is still not sufficient. I mean, I am empathetic enough to understand that being fat influences everything about a person's life and identity, but never having been fat myself, what that REALLY means, especially emotionally, is something that I can only understand if others explain it to me. Not because I don't care, but just because I have never been to that place myself.
For me personally, I've reconciled a lot of guilt by knowing that what I do is what matters. As long as what matters most to me is that the person I love is happy and I support whatever that means for him in any way that I can, then I think it is OK for me to not beat myself up over every uncomfortable FA thought. That's just how I see it anyway.
Anyway, I have now ALSO brought the tone down. :p But I just wanted to say that I really appreciate that you and I can talk openly about this. It helps me to understand as much as I can and I hope you feel the same.
Me:
Wow, thank you for this PM (private message). (...)You're right in that we all do need to make an effort to understand each other. I'd say you do a good job trying to do that. I'm trying really hard to be more empathetic and not just to some types of FAs either.
I'm interested in knowing what the issues are that you're dealing with right now, but if you don't want to expand on that, I understand. All the things you've said here make a lot of sense to me. You like what you like.
(...)
FFA:
I completely "get" what you're saying about feeling like two people in one body. That's the thing I think I have finally really "heard" from people (on the forum) that I never quite understood before. I would imagine it would be very difficult to adjust to all of the changes that significant weight loss would bring. It also makes perfect sense that there might be hesitation about an FA if the fat person expects weight loss to still be part of their future. That feeling of not wanting to be in the same situation but in reverse, now they're too thin, that does make perfect sense. The only thing that I sometimes wonder about is why it seems that both fat admirers and fat people who may get involved with them seem to feel this point more than others. By that I mean, anyone has to accept the possibility that their partner may change size during the course of a relationship, but for us it always seems fraught with greater meaning and I wonder if that is because fat is such an emotional issue. And I don't just mean for fat people, there is the fatphobic culture, the "war on obesity" and countless other things that make this seem so all consuming to us sometimes. I would also guess that for most fat people there has been the idea of weight loss in the back of their mind for a lot of their lives and maybe being with a fat admirer feels like committing to giving that option away? I don't know if I explained that right, but I think you know what I mean. And believe me, I know from the Fat admirer side that we spend so much time sorting this all out that the idea of partner weight loss seems much more complicated than it should probably be for us as well. But there are no guarantees and no one stays the same forever anyway, so sometimes I think it is better to just jump in. I sometimes feel everyone (including myself) in the size acceptance universe spends too much time worrying about what if and worrying too much about relationships in the abstract. I don't know, it's confusing. I agree love is sometimes not enough. (...)but it still feels like things get overly complicated sometimes in the, to use your term, "fativerse" (I love that term by the way. ;))
I feel sometimes like the more I understand, and the "better" a fat admirer I become, the less likely I am to ever have a relationship that works. :P I know that's not true, but sometimes it sure feels that way. It's strange because for me, as a fat admirer, finding that world and developing that identity has been very powerful and liberating to me. Especially because there are so many fat admirers male and female who I really like (on the forum). And that makes me feel better about having the feelings I have. It helps with the guilt and the questions of whether or not I would be good for (...)any fat man in my life. Yet at the same time, I feel that the more I understand about the lives and inner lives of fat people and formerly fat people and all the varieties that that includes, the more I become confused about how to navigate these thorny issues. In other words, it seems like some of these things will be a part of most relationships, it's just a matter of degree. One man may want to lose a little weight, one a lot of weight, but these various issues of his feelings about himself and about me and on and on seem to always be present. And I don't mean just for me, I mean for all of these fat admirer/fat person relationships. It's true that no one, no matter how much love and desire they have, can ever make another person truly comfortable in their own skin, no matter how much all of us fat admirers wish we could make it so. I guess the best thing is to develop and establish a good and solid foundation and then whatever happens later, both partners have to be open to the possibility of change. That's true for anyone in any long term relationship, so why should we expect to be different, right? :) Still, I can understand why for fat partners in particular that may be a slightly more "loaded" concept from an emotional stand point. And there are fat admirers who are much more rigid about needing people to be a certain size, etc, so like anything it ultimately comes back to individuals. I guess the ultimate guidebook I keep hoping for, that will tell me exactly what to do, is never going to fall from the sky, huh? :P
On a non- relationship note, one thing that has really hit me since being (on the forum) is how TRULY badly and even differently fat people are treated. I mean, I never was so naïve as to think it was easy to be fat, but some things really do astonish me. Not just the insults from strangers, but the way it seems that so many people seem to think they have the right to butt into a fat person's business because they are fat. That is just astonishing to me. Also, my family is crazy, but in general, we don't get on anyone's case about their appearance for any reason. Fat, thin, dress alternatively, what have you. So the idea of constantly getting harassed by the people close to you really makes it seem sometimes like fat people can be under constant assault. I can understand why cynicism and skepticism can so easily creep in under such conditions. And that's before you get to any physical issues and limitations. I guess that's why I thought your post was so important for fat admirers to read. The idea that being heavier had caused certain actions to be such an ordeal for you that even now, having lost weight, you still feel that dread, that was a very eye opening concept for me. I think a lot of thin fat admirers do care but don't understand. And because we really don't understand, sometimes we don't even know the questions to ask. Or the issues to think about. I'm not saying there aren't jerks, lord knows there are plenty of those(...)but I think sometimes we don't understand why we aren't better understood by fat people, or why fat people can be suspicious of us AS A WHOLE, and I think it's because there is so often so much we don't understand and then when we reveal that we don't understand we seem insensitive. But sometimes it is just ignorance and not willful ignorance as with some topics, but actual honest to God, "I never even thought about that" ignorance. That's why I really appreciate it when someone such as yourself not only is open on the boards, but wants to have those discussions with fat admirers. That's why I try to do my part on my end. There's so much to understand. And there are some great people in both groups (on the forum) and I think as we work together to figure ourselves and each other out, it makes us all stronger in our own positions and lives. And then there is the whole issue of those of us who support size acceptance versus, you know, society, so helping to strengthen the community is important, I feel. And it seems that every time some of us really open up, we move a little bit farther forward. But it sure can take a lot out of you, huh?
Me:
You know, after I read this email from you, I think it might be good to start a thread - "two people, one body" and ask the other members how they feel about it and what their expectations are going into relationships. So much of the discussion would have to be abstract tho, since there are a lot of fat people who have never been in relationships well into adulthood whether they've lost weight or not...or there are FA's who've never had the chance to be in relationships with the fat people they're so turned on by for whatever reasons....i think it might be interesting. Anyway, I'm not sure how many people would open up or be willing to contribute or what turns that kind of thread would take.
Perhaps there is so much meaning with us all because so much of it is wrapped up in who we all are. To loose a part of yourself or change a huge part of yourself whether you like it or not, or whether you have control over it or not is just traumatic. If I loose weight, who will I be? If I'm not fat, then who am I? What is the skinny me like? I'm guessing for an FA it's, If I'm turned on by fat and that makes me X, what would I be if the fat were gone? Even tho you don't wear the fat, it is still part of who you are....could this contribute to such feelings of ownership?
Without that defining thing, there is confusion and imbalance, and chaos. And people like stability and hate change. What happens tho when a person doesn't want to think of the fat as a defining trait? I'm just not sure how that's really possible. I don't see how any of this can't be complicated.
And you know, I honestly think fat men can have such different issues than fat women that the relationship dynamics might require a different set of coping mechanisms.
I don't understand why so many of them don't get that tho they have to deal with body and images issues too, women are under more pressure. I get that all the feminizing aspects of fat take can away from their "manhood," but the same is true for women: the masculinizing affects can take away from a woman's womanhood. I think the problem is that the hold on a straight man's manhood is often tenuous to begin with (such is our culture), whereas a woman's is not. I just wonder how that affects the relationship dynamic...some men don't feel manly if they express their feelings. If they're already not feeling manly because their fat....I'm rambling now I think.
I gotta say, I do think you are defineitly one of the more enlightened FA's around the boards. Maybe you should get together with a few of the other more mature and knowledgable FAs and actually write an FA Guidebook. Self-publish it. I'd buy a copy.
FFA:
Pardon the clunky way that I am going to quote your email and then respond, but I thought you made some really good points and I wanted to respond point by point this time.
“You know, after I read this email from you, I think it might be good to start a thread - "two people, one body" and ask the other members how they feel about it and what their expectations are going into relationships. So much of the discussion would have to be abstract tho, since there are a lot of fat people who have never been in relationships well into adulthood whether they've lost weight or not...or there are FA's who've never had the chance to be in relationships with the fat people they're so turned on by for whatever reasons....i think it might be interesting. Anyway, I'm not sure how many people would open up or be willing to contribute or what turns that kind of thread would take.”
I think you’re right that it would be interesting to hear the responses, but I too wonder how open people would be about that issue. I think that’s one of those “big issues” lurking behind the FA/fat people debates. Sadly, it seems those are the issues that are so difficult to get everyone to discuss honestly. Also, I wonder if the fact that there are couples and friends who “cross” those lines would make people hesitant to be totally honest. As for the people who haven’t been in relationships, I think that is a major factor in some of the tension on the boards sometimes. I think a lot of people are holding onto ideals without understanding how things often work out in real life. Partnerships, especially long partnerships are so open to change over time. The people change and not just physically. Also, I think that when you’re in a long term relationship you start to understand things that you may not have about the other person. I think a lot of times in life we tend to think most people come somewhat from our perspective, even if we don’t always get along with them. And, of course, most of how we behave and view the world stems from our upbringing. When you live with someone or marry them you are setting up a new “family” in a way and your views and theirs are going to merge, occasionally collide, one of you may change the others way of thinking (not through force, I mean, just because they never thought about looking at things in a certain way before), etc. So I think sometimes there is a lot of thought about the ABSTRACT and not about the fact that each relationship will be different based on who is involved. I think that is why sometimes it seems that some people on the board are always making arguments that seem almost ideological, and not based on experience. Ideals are wonderful, but reality is often full of compromise. I get the feeling...a few people...need more “real relationship” experience to better understand that some of the things said are not as disturbing as they may sound in the abstract. And I am talking both directions. I think a lot of the FA hand wringing and guilt and fear and worrying about what people will say or think etc comes from that fact that some of the FA s haven’t actually been with someone they are in love with. They are not thinking about a person, they are thinking about a concept. And it seems sometimes everyone over thinks things because there is no reality to hold it all in place.
I also wonder how many fat people would be able to articulate the feeling of being two people in one body. Would that be too personal? Would they be too afraid of coming across less than size positive if they felt things were easier/better when they are smaller? I often think that causes some topics to be avoided as well. There is this idea that to state being smaller (not small, or thin, but smaller) is somehow going against what (the forum) stands for. I think that is BS, but I get the feeling sometimes that people feel very on guard discussing comparisons of their own size past and present. I don’t think that should stop anyone from discussing it, but I often wonder if that is why it is so rare.
“Perhaps there is so much meaning with us all because so much of it is wrapped up in who we all are. To loose a part of yourself or change a huge part of yourself whether you like it or not, or whether you have control over it or not is just traumatic. If I loose weight, who will I be? If I'm not fat, then who am I? What is the skinny me like? I'm guessing for an FA it's, If I'm turned on by fat and that makes me X, what would I be if the fat were gone? Even tho you don't wear the fat, it is still part of who you are....could this contribute to such feelings of ownership?”
From the FA side, I have to say, you hit it right on the head, I think. It is not a feeling of ownership of “the fat” in a lot of cases. Of course there are those who feel that way, but I think when you see a genuinely nice FA express things that sound proprietary, it is because fat is part of our identity too even if we are thin. It is our sexuality and for a partner to lose weight does impact our identity. It makes us wonder about things. Not only because it is often difficult to understand we are FAs in the first place, and to go through all of our self acceptance, but also because once you know that’s what you like, you wonder what it means if you don’t get to express the love of fat anymore. By the same token, most of us are not so shallow as to expect a partner to stay the same so it makes it confusing. There is a certain “shallowness” to being a fat admirer because it does deal with something so physical. And most of us can’t help what turns us on, so it is putting someone in the position of choosing who they love versus what turns them on. Now that happens to other people all the time, but because we come to identify ourselves as FAs and to become proud of who we are and maybe even political about size acceptance, etc, it can really throw a person for a loop, when a partner loses weight, I think.
There is also, I think for some, a slight sense that the fat person is rejecting the part of us that is FA. I don’t mean in any way to imply that this thinking is right, or fair, but I think there is often a certain feeling of hurt and rejection. Basically, because it feels like the partner really was unhappy fat and maybe you contributed to their unhappiness. That also leads to the guilt bubbling up again, and then most thinking, feeling FAs will have some trouble and some issues. I don’t think these are insurmountable problems, or doom all relationships with FAs, but I do think it is what many of the partners who have a partner lose weight are actually trying to say. Not “how dare she/he lose weight!” But “what does it say about me that I’m this conflicted?” “And how unhappy was he/she that whole time when I thought things were great?” “And would he/she have been better off with a non FA all along?” Also the fear of feeling shallow and not knowing how to handle a life spent with a thin partner. I understand these things are in reality not our business because it is not our body, but it is not easy to just shrug it all off and not feel any sense of loss or confusion. I think it can be worked through, but I do think the FAs are wrestling with issues that are much deeper than feelings of ownership of their partner’s bodies. I wish more people would understand that. I think more FAs would get the support that they need if they weren’t always being accused of feeling they control their wives bodies. And again, when I say FAs should get support it is not only for the sake of the FA. For every man or woman FA struggling with this issue, there is a BBW (big beautiful woman) or BHM (big handsome man) partner who is on the other end of the relationship and I think if the FA gets support it will make things a little easier and these are situations so difficult that every little bit would help.
“And you know, I honestly think fat men can have such different issues than fat women that the relationship dynamics might require a different set of coping mechanisms.
I don't understand why so many of them don't get that tho they have to deal with body and images issues too, women are under more pressure. I get that all the feminizing aspects of fat take can away from their "manhood," but the same is true for women: the masculinizing affects can take away from a woman's womanhood. I thnk the problem is that the hold on a straight man's manhood is often tenuous to begin with (such is our culture), whereas a woman's is not. I just wonder how that affects the relationship dynamic...some men don't feel manly if they express their feelings. If they're already not feeling manly because their fat....I'm rambling now I think.”
I think some of the BHM do understand that women receive more pressure for their weight. I think that sometimes the issue seems crazier on (the forum) than it really is because the men get so busy defending the fact that they even have problems and they lose track of their arguments. However, I think the feelings of being told you’re unattractive, or less than are universal to fat people. For the men I think there is the added feeling of people treating them like children if they’re over a certain size, or not being as mobile if they’re over a certain size and therefore they are limited in some of the traditionally male tasks, etc. I mean, I could see how a man who needs his thin FA wife to drop him off at the door of a store or something might feel confused about his role in a relationship. The same would be true for a BBW, but I think for men there is the added societal expectation of capability that they have to wrestle with feeling that they don’t meet. I think that’s where the men maybe have a harder time in society. That their competence is questioned due to their size. I don’t mean men and women should have certain gender roles, but I still think those roles do lurk in a lot of people’s minds and impacts how they view/judge others. I also don’t think most of the BHM I have known in real life or on the boards are chauvinists by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, I find it quite the opposite. But I still think they get judged harshly, just on different criteria. It just seems that they don’t articulate that criteria very well and then everyone thinks they’re talking about being judged harshly in the same way as women and I don’t think they are talking about “in the same way”, I think it just seems that way. It is about gender identity, but I think it impacts men and women differently, and I don’t know that one makes life any easier than the other. I know you are understanding when the men speak, so I am not preaching at you, just thinking it through. I always think it’s a shame that more of the BHM don’t participate on the boards, but BHM are so shy in general, they really are. It’s one of the most frustrating things about being an FFA, believe me. But I think there would be so much that the BBW and BHM could support each other about. It seems a missed opportunity. I think it would make the community stronger. But as a thin FA, that’s not really my territory to cover. :)
“I gotta say, I do think you are defineitly one of the more enlightened FA's around the boards. Maybe you should get together with a few of the other more mature and knowledgable FAs and actually write an FA Guidebook. Self-publish it. I'd buy a copy."
You know, I’ve actually thought about that. Actually (name removed) and I once discussed an essay based part of the forum for FAs in the wake of the FA board discussion. It might be interesting to collect some of our thoughts and writings. I am always tempted because I always get such positive feedback from BBW and young (usually male) FA whenever I write one of my long, honest posts and it makes me think that there is a desire/need for a book. I am always amazed when a young male FA says I expressed exactly what he was thinking/feeling. It makes me realize FAs ARE a specific group with a lot in common and I know many of us feel alone, male and female for a long time. Maybe I will talk to some of the really smart and literate FAs male and female and see if we can get something together. I think there certainly seems to be a need. I also often wonder how many female FAs never even realize what they are because women might be less inclined to seek out information about their sexual feelings on the internet. Maybe books are a good way to reach out to others. It also would allow BBW and BHM to read our thoughts without the risk of someone derailing the thread or putting someone on the defensive, etc. It would give a clearer picture because it would be on topic and unchallenged, which would make it more honest. From you and other BBW/BHM who have discussed reading what the FAs write, I get the feeling honesty is what most are looking for. You want to KNOW us and understand us. I think that can be easier if you are not getting asked crazy questions or accused of things or have a negative spin from out of left field thrown at your post. I believe everyone’s input is important, but sometimes I feel like you can’t have a thorough discussion because, the one who is anti-feeder has to chime in, then the one who is anti-FA, then the man hater(, etc,) but I think sometimes we have trouble keeping a thread going long enough to get a lot of discussion out in the open. And it can be hard to have an honest dialog when the aforementioned types keep tripping everyone up with things that are totally off topic. And they do that to EVERYONE.
Me:
Oh my God, You Rock!
I think this exact conversation we've been having is what should be posted in that two people one body thread I want to start. It is near perfect the way it is. It's honest and touches on what should be opened up for discussion. Even if only two or three people contribute, it would still be good to get it out there? If not on the board, then can I use it for my blog? What do you think?
FFA:
Oh, you can absolutely use this for your blog. If you want to put it on (the forum), I will check in and see how you start the thread and contribute as well.
:)
March 24, 2008
Just How Fat is Fat Anyway
This particular question has been plaguing me for quite some time now. For the longest time it seemed clear. Anyone my size or bigger is fat and anyone a lot smaller than me is skinny. The problem occurs for me when a person I think is skinny tells me, no vehemently insists that he/she is actually fat - and other people agree with the smaller person. It's happened often enough for me to wonder if there was something I was missing.
I thought maybe if I had a chart of some sort detailing how much one should weigh for one's height, sex, and racial mix. Or maybe some mathematical formula based on body mass and...oh right. I hate those things. They don't help at all. In fact, they make things worse. So I thought some more about how to know definitively when one is fat. Is it really truly determined by BMI or Height and weight charts? Doctor's seem to think so. The FDA insists upon it. Do you alone determine this or is it determined by society as a whole? Is there a sliding scale? What about fat distribution, does that count? Only in the belly? Hip to waist ratio? Double chin, flabby arms and thighs? Saggy boobs? Tight clothes? Cankles? Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
But after talking and listening to people, lots of people both fat and thin I began to realize that fat is relative. My fat is your skinny, my skinny your fat. And so many more in-betweens as to boggle the mind...
But more than anything I'm starting to think that maybe fat is a state of mind. People talk of feeling fat. "I feel fat when X happens," or "I feel fat when X doesn't happen." But what does that mean really? Whenever someone says I feel fat when X happens, it's usually a negative connotation. I wonder how many people say "I feel fat when my lover rubs my belly," instead of "I feel sexy when my lover rubs my belly." So it bothers me that fat as a feeling is so often a negative feeling for so many people. I can honestly say I've never felt fat. Only anger, frustration, and rage when other people insist that fat in any context is bad. Never once did I think that my fat made me feel like shit. I always thought of the other people as shit for putting me thru such trials and tribulations. So when I found out very recently that people often feel fat, it made me really wonder, and I felt compelled to write something about that.
I want so much for fat to be a positive thing for everyone. I want fat to be loved and adored; not just by FA's or FFA's either. I want the medical community to stop scaring people into believing that they'll die from fat when in all likelihood they really won't. I want the media outlets to stop airing/printing negative images of fat people. Fat women especially. I want to live in a world that says "Hey, your fat is fine just the way it is." Or at the very least say "Hey your fat is fine as long as it doesn't impair your quality of life" - whatever that means for you cause, after all is said and done, fat is only relative.
I thought maybe if I had a chart of some sort detailing how much one should weigh for one's height, sex, and racial mix. Or maybe some mathematical formula based on body mass and...oh right. I hate those things. They don't help at all. In fact, they make things worse. So I thought some more about how to know definitively when one is fat. Is it really truly determined by BMI or Height and weight charts? Doctor's seem to think so. The FDA insists upon it. Do you alone determine this or is it determined by society as a whole? Is there a sliding scale? What about fat distribution, does that count? Only in the belly? Hip to waist ratio? Double chin, flabby arms and thighs? Saggy boobs? Tight clothes? Cankles? Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
But after talking and listening to people, lots of people both fat and thin I began to realize that fat is relative. My fat is your skinny, my skinny your fat. And so many more in-betweens as to boggle the mind...
But more than anything I'm starting to think that maybe fat is a state of mind. People talk of feeling fat. "I feel fat when X happens," or "I feel fat when X doesn't happen." But what does that mean really? Whenever someone says I feel fat when X happens, it's usually a negative connotation. I wonder how many people say "I feel fat when my lover rubs my belly," instead of "I feel sexy when my lover rubs my belly." So it bothers me that fat as a feeling is so often a negative feeling for so many people. I can honestly say I've never felt fat. Only anger, frustration, and rage when other people insist that fat in any context is bad. Never once did I think that my fat made me feel like shit. I always thought of the other people as shit for putting me thru such trials and tribulations. So when I found out very recently that people often feel fat, it made me really wonder, and I felt compelled to write something about that.
I want so much for fat to be a positive thing for everyone. I want fat to be loved and adored; not just by FA's or FFA's either. I want the medical community to stop scaring people into believing that they'll die from fat when in all likelihood they really won't. I want the media outlets to stop airing/printing negative images of fat people. Fat women especially. I want to live in a world that says "Hey, your fat is fine just the way it is." Or at the very least say "Hey your fat is fine as long as it doesn't impair your quality of life" - whatever that means for you cause, after all is said and done, fat is only relative.
March 8, 2008
Fat Sex: A Primer
A few people have asked of late, "How do fat people have sex anyway?" This question always amuses me. I'm tempted to say "Picture two amoebas getting it on." But I don't. I know that what they really want to know about are positions and not how do fat folks kiss or snuggle. So I've decided to devote a post to the nitty gritty of big love.
So just how DO fat folks do it?
1. Well lots and lots of pillows. Pillows are your friends. Under the hips, under the back, under the shoulders. They help during the penetration part so both sets of genitals are all lined up.
2. Experimentation. Ya just gotta fumble around until you find a position that works. Be creative. But generally sideways works pretty well.
I know what you're thinking - But what if the fat girl is on top...
3. Some people like it when the fat girl is on top. The FA/FFA may like the feeling of a big soft body on top of them. They luxuriate under it, and yes, they can breathe under there.
But isn't the fat in the way of stuff?
Depends on the couple. Maybe it is and they have fun fumbling around until it isn't. It's never been in my way. ;-)
I could say more, but since this is only a primer this is all you get.
These sites might help:
HanneBlank dot com
goofyfootpress dot com
http://www.ibiblio.org/usenet-i/groups-html/alt.sex.fat.html
So just how DO fat folks do it?
1. Well lots and lots of pillows. Pillows are your friends. Under the hips, under the back, under the shoulders. They help during the penetration part so both sets of genitals are all lined up.
2. Experimentation. Ya just gotta fumble around until you find a position that works. Be creative. But generally sideways works pretty well.
I know what you're thinking - But what if the fat girl is on top...
3. Some people like it when the fat girl is on top. The FA/FFA may like the feeling of a big soft body on top of them. They luxuriate under it, and yes, they can breathe under there.
But isn't the fat in the way of stuff?
Depends on the couple. Maybe it is and they have fun fumbling around until it isn't. It's never been in my way. ;-)
I could say more, but since this is only a primer this is all you get.
These sites might help:
HanneBlank dot com
goofyfootpress dot com
http://www.ibiblio.org/usenet-i/groups-html/alt.sex.fat.html
February 23, 2008
Synonyms and Such
I've been thinking still about this word fatty. It occurred to me to wonder just how many synonyms there are for the word fat, so onto thesaurus.reference.com I went. It astonished me that so many of the words were negative. It seems obvious to me now that they should be, and yet....why hadn't I ever thought to do this before? As I perused the entries I wondered how many of those words an FA (Fat Admirer) would use in the heat of passion: "Come here you podgy pillowy beauty;" "Get over here you laradceous lady;" "Let me lick your suety goodness;" "Babe, I find your breasts quite substantial. I want to kiss them." ...I could go on....
One of the words I perused is chunky, and its resulting synonyms were much more benign. Words like chubby, plump, rotund, ample, big, buxom, hefty, plump, full-figured, and zaftg sound rather nice. I wouldn't mind being called any of those words. I especially liked buxom so I looked it up in the thesaurus. I was not at all surprised that the entries were sex related: ample, built, busty, comely, curvaceous, curvy, full-bosomed, full-figured, healthy, hearty, lusty, plump, robust, shapely, stacked, voluptuous, well-made, well-proportioned, well-rounded, winsome, and zaftig. Such words remind me of a large lusty lady happily waiting to receive her man. They scream sexy. Indeed, a simple internet search for "fat porn" will more than likely result in hits with words like chubby, plumper, big, buxom, and voluptuous. These were the words I was expecting to see when I entered fat as the initial search term. Why shouldn't these be the main entries for fat in any thesaurus? Who makes these things anyway? Who the hell is guarding the English language? I want to know so I can have a chat with these people about their sociocultural expectations...
...But then I became uncomfortable when I thought about how I had cringed when I had been called fatty or piggy in the bedroom. So what about my sociocultural expectations? I want very much to be comfortable with fat sexuality - my sexuality, but does that mean I need to be okay with the conflicting play on words? I understand that part of what sometimes makes sex fun is that element of naughtiness. Sometimes you want to hear and say dirty words, but fat as a dirty word is just something I have a problem with. Why is fat a four-letter word and not just to an FA either? Why is fat so bad? Why is fat so bad to love? A fat body that is always invisible suddenly becomes a very visible villain where sex is concerned. One could even go so far as to say that a fat body should be viewed as perverse and the FA a sexual deviant. Not only am I supposed to accept that, but I'm supposed to feel dirty and/or guilty about it too?!
...These are all the things I think about when I think about these words. I think about why chubby and buxom are somehow less villainous than fatty. I think about how I don't want the mere existence of my fat to make me a sexual oddity. I think about how I wish I could change the negative view about fat that has been sanctioned by the scientific and medical community. I think about this: the fact that there has been such a proliferation of slick web sites dedicated to fat porn within the past two years is proof that the male gaze has been directed at the fat female body regardless of whether they feel naughty about it. And that gaze is good because it makes the fat body visible. That gaze is good because it validates fat sexuality.
So I should conclude that ultimately the FA uses these words because he loves them. So why shouldn't I?
One of the words I perused is chunky, and its resulting synonyms were much more benign. Words like chubby, plump, rotund, ample, big, buxom, hefty, plump, full-figured, and zaftg sound rather nice. I wouldn't mind being called any of those words. I especially liked buxom so I looked it up in the thesaurus. I was not at all surprised that the entries were sex related: ample, built, busty, comely, curvaceous, curvy, full-bosomed, full-figured, healthy, hearty, lusty, plump, robust, shapely, stacked, voluptuous, well-made, well-proportioned, well-rounded, winsome, and zaftig. Such words remind me of a large lusty lady happily waiting to receive her man. They scream sexy. Indeed, a simple internet search for "fat porn" will more than likely result in hits with words like chubby, plumper, big, buxom, and voluptuous. These were the words I was expecting to see when I entered fat as the initial search term. Why shouldn't these be the main entries for fat in any thesaurus? Who makes these things anyway? Who the hell is guarding the English language? I want to know so I can have a chat with these people about their sociocultural expectations...
...But then I became uncomfortable when I thought about how I had cringed when I had been called fatty or piggy in the bedroom. So what about my sociocultural expectations? I want very much to be comfortable with fat sexuality - my sexuality, but does that mean I need to be okay with the conflicting play on words? I understand that part of what sometimes makes sex fun is that element of naughtiness. Sometimes you want to hear and say dirty words, but fat as a dirty word is just something I have a problem with. Why is fat a four-letter word and not just to an FA either? Why is fat so bad? Why is fat so bad to love? A fat body that is always invisible suddenly becomes a very visible villain where sex is concerned. One could even go so far as to say that a fat body should be viewed as perverse and the FA a sexual deviant. Not only am I supposed to accept that, but I'm supposed to feel dirty and/or guilty about it too?!
...These are all the things I think about when I think about these words. I think about why chubby and buxom are somehow less villainous than fatty. I think about how I don't want the mere existence of my fat to make me a sexual oddity. I think about how I wish I could change the negative view about fat that has been sanctioned by the scientific and medical community. I think about this: the fact that there has been such a proliferation of slick web sites dedicated to fat porn within the past two years is proof that the male gaze has been directed at the fat female body regardless of whether they feel naughty about it. And that gaze is good because it makes the fat body visible. That gaze is good because it validates fat sexuality.
So I should conclude that ultimately the FA uses these words because he loves them. So why shouldn't I?
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